Tuesday, May 02, 2006

Chuck

I was of the opinion that we had already given this wannabe College Republican too much press on here, and so I didn't really want to comment on the Winders article; but you're right, it's absolutely outrageous. One of the better lines I think is: "But Chuck derails his College Republican revolution by playing not just dirty, but downright dumb."

59 comments:

GP said...

Thanks for posting that. I missed the ABH article. I almost feel bad for the guy.

Anonymous said...

I think he is a secret clone (or clown) of Ralph Hudgens.

So far, he's the only candidate in this race that would be worse than Alvin Sheats.

Chuck said...

I would inquire as to why people are belittling me, calling me names, etc., without even having known me - but I don't think it matters too much. I view this as a positive rather than a negative.

I will do whatever I have to do in order to get at the truth. By joining this secret group, I was able to discover the real motivation behind the fraternity and sorority ban. Comments such as "We're going to watch Animal House tonight as an example of what we're trying to keep out of here", and that fraternities and sororities are about "drugs and prostitition in khaki pant[s] and a white oxford."

In a letter to me, Commissioner Alice Kinman said that she did not believe the moratorium was based on prejudice and stereotyping. Now she knows the facts, now she knows the real reason that the Cobbham people wanted this moratorium.

I don't know if Dr. Kinman's mind has been changed by what she now knows is the reason behind the moratorium. Maybe it has, maybe it hasn't. But at least now she knows all the facts. That is my goal - to bring all the facts to light.

Sunshine, as you know, is the best disinfectant. And I think this moratorium needs to be disinfected. I think it is a symptom of a larger problem - a government that does not care about students (a significant portion of its population), a government that does not care for its citizens property rights, and a government that makes decisions behind closed doors. I am running to change all of that.

Anonymous Al - if your political machine thinks of me in bad terms, I will wear that as a badge of honour. I have had enough of the Davison Machine, and I think most of Athens has as well.

GP said...

Were you refering to this blog as a "secret group"?

Chuck said...

No, this blog is not secret. The secret group I was referring to was the subject of the article.

Anonymous said...

the secret group is the Ryan family, right?

DoubleDawgDareYa said...

Good lord people...I think Chuckie is saying the Cobbham neighborhood group is the "secret group".

Not that any of the rest of what he said made much sense.

Publius said...

Holy crap. Just...holy crap.

Rule number one of campaign politics. Don't fucking lie. Don't lie to your donors, don't lie to the voters, and don't - above all - lie to the press.

In short, don't fucking lie.

As if I needed to explain this, right? But I will anyway. Reporters aren't stupid - at least most of them aren't. They will ferret out the truth, and you will look bad. And Chuck does. More on that in a second.

You should also avoid lying because telling the truth is the right thing to do. Also, you should tell the truth because, well, it's usually the easiest thing to remember.

I'm monumentally pissed about Chuck's behavior. It shows a certain arrogance - look reporters, I'm smarter than you - but that's not the real reason I'm hacked off. Hell, every person I know that's any good in the political arena has a healthy dose of arrogance, and that includes both of your humble co-editors.

No, arrogance is fine. But Chuck, you're screwing up the process. Every disaffected voter out there, the people who don't care about elections anymore, because "all politicians are the same, and they're all crooked," just got another reason to stay home this November. You just reinforced a stereotype that politicians and leaders of character are fighting every damn day to destroy. On behalf of those of us who are out there every cycle trying to get those people of character elected, I'd like to issue a gigantic "Fuck you." You just made our work that much tougher. But it isn't about the activists and the volunteers and the hired guns and the politicians who are trying to make a positive difference.

Its about the voters. And, as I said before, you just reinforced the stereotype and gave them another reason to stay home in November. While I firmly believe that whether you vote or not is your choice, and the onus is on the voter to make participatory democracy participatory, looking at it from the point of view of the 90% of Americans who spend less than 15 minutes a week thinking about government and politics, I can't say I blame them.

Nice work.

GP said...

I may not agree with Chuck's politics or even his methods of presenting his views, but I didn't think he was a bad guy. After reading Winders article however, I'm not so sure.

In his above comments, sayeth Chuck "I would inquire as to why people are belittling me, calling me names, etc., without even having known me - but I don't think it matters too much." The obvious answer to that question would be the content of the Winders article. Posting a repeat statement of your commitment to stopping closed door decision making etc. doesn't address the very embarrasing charges in the article.

I agree with Publius, starting a campaign by lying to reporters does nothing to help your cause and reinforces the apathetic attitude that politicians just don't give a shit about people. Also, in my (very unqualified) opinion, a campaign based mainly on this Greek Moratorium issue, isn't going to resonate with anyone.

Dawg Corleone said...

A frosty forecast in Hades...

Publius has offered up a post with which I am in every possible way in agreement.

Publius said...

Ssssshhhh!!!!!

Don't tell anyone!

Chuck said...

I am not going to respond to the Winders column (it is not an article, it is a column) because it will very likely be the subject of litigation soon. All I will say is that I am going to do whatever I have to do to make sure all the facts are revealed. If it means I have to do a little "investigative reporting", then so be it.

As I said earlier, sunshine is the best disinfectant. And I don't think there is any doubt, at least not among the people I am reaching out to, that the attitudes expressed in that secret group (yes, the closed-doors Cobbham group) need to be disinfected.

It is interesting that everyone wants to focus on HOW I got the information rather than what the information actually is. Does anyone claim that I am lying about what was actually said? Does anyone claim that this is a good and proper attitude to have toward such generous and productive members of this community?

I am concerned, due to some conversations I've had, that fraternities and sororities are about to stop doing philanthropy, or at least take their philanthropy to Oconee County, if they don't start getting some "give and take" from the community. Is that really in the best interests of anyone here? This government, which at least pays lip service to reducing the crushing poverty in this county, is about to lose the charity of many many hard working volunteers unless they start acting with at least a degree of fairness. The sororities alone, in one year, raised about $100,000 for charities and performed 20,000 hours of service for the less fortunate. What a serious blow that would be if it ended, due to the prejudice of a small fragment of the upper crust of Athens society.

I did not do what was best for me. I completely respect that - indeed, I knew that when I did it. I knew that someone would find out - as an attorney I've used Internet background checks a time or two myself. I was not concerned about what would happen to me. I was, and am, concerned about what is going to happen to the underprivileged in this community if the Greek societies decide to put a "moratorium" on philanthropy.

Publius said...

Chuck,

Why would I even consider "what was said" credible when the way you said you gathered it was proven to be a falsehood not once, not twice, but three times?

Put another way, if you want to extend your allusion to "investigation," you're a practicing attorney. Now let's pretend that you're defending a client on some type of criminal charge. The prosecution's case hinges on the testimony of one key witness who said that he heard your client planning the crime of which he is accused. Now, further assume that the key prosecution witness has recanted part of his story after it was proven to be false three times.

As the defense attorney in that hypothetical case, tell me you aren't rarin' to go after that witness' credibility on your cross.

Well, it's the same thing in this situation. Whether the information you had is accurate or not (I don't know, and I don't care, especially since Cobbham is not in the district for which you are running), is irrelevant, because you have created a major credibility issue for yourself by lying about how you got the information. So tell the AthPo jury; why should we give any statement you make any credence whatsoever? You have proven that you will lie to the voters, your presumptive constituents, when it suits your needs.

Finally, good luck on suing the ABH for libel, which I assume is what you're implying. I'm no lawyer, but I don't see much of a libel case there. Perhaps DiDDY will put me on the right track. Anyhoo, I don't live in D9, but I'll make sure my friends who do live there know about your feelings on the First Amendment.

GP said...

Chuck, I don't know you and have nothing against you personally, but your lack of response to the Winders column doesn't look good. You intimate that you may sue over the column. Does that mean the content is not true?

You also wrote, "I did not do what was best for me. I completely respect that - indeed, I knew that when I did it. I knew that someone would find out...." Those don't sound like words of righteous indignation.

I'm familiar with your platform, and I don't see anyone attacking you for it. I see questions about your integrity raised in the column and haven't been answered.

DoubleDawgDareYa said...

Chuckie, Chuckie, Chuckie....where to begin...I don't have the patience to craft my thoughts into paragraph form at the moment, so I'll just respond with a numbered list to a few things:

1) What is the startling revelation that your little bit of undercover investigative journalism has uncovered? That folks in Cobbham don't like the Greek students? that they have notions of them having wild, drunken orgies? Wow! Stunning.
2) Why should Athens be enslaved to the "charity" work of the Greek students? What kind of charity is it if special treatment is expected in return? I admire the work that some of the Greek students do (some of it's just resume padding, but I won't generalize or "stereotype", because we all hate that, don't we?), but it ought to be done because it's worthwhile in its own right, and not as part of some kind of quid pro quo.
3) As far as any kind of lawsuit against ABH goes, the preliminary evidence seems to indicate that ABH would have the "truth" defense available; I haven't seen you allege that anything said was false.
4) You think it's ok to do ANYTHING to discover the truth? really? what about torture? violation of civil rights? I'm not suggesting that you would or even could do these things (since you're not the government), but where is the dividing line in your logic? You justify an action that displays a lack of integrity by claiming to be trying to fix a larger injustice (I will also note that you NOW claim this is what you were doing, after attempting to explain the discrepancies away first). What will or won't you do? Will you cheat at campaign financing, for example, because ultimately it's more important that you get elected so you can fix Athens' ills? Wouldn't it be justified in the long run under your logic?

Bottom line: don't try to spin yourself into some of kind of self-sacrificing hero because you got caught in a lie. Face up to it, I mean all the way, not with your rationalizations and justifications; just admit you fucked up and move on. And maybe, if you really think any of your would-be constituents should still trust you, continue your campaign with integrity from here on. And oh, I agree with gp, a few extra issues to talk about would be nice too.

Chuck said...

There was a statement of fact in the Winders column that was not true. Making false statements designed to smear someone's credibility is not protected by the First or by any other Amendment.

So Pub - do not take my word for it. I will be posting what the Cobbham people wrote soon, on my website. You will be able to see for yourself. Seeing for yourself is generally best, as opposed to relying on a clearly biased column from a newspaper editor with a political agenda. Generally.

Dawg - not special treatment, just fair treatment. They just want the CHANCE to be a good neighbor. They are trying. Kappa Alpha, solely out of their own good grace, gave up their Old South party this year, in an effort to show people that they can be good neighbors. Has it mattered? No. Beta Theta Pi, after receiving complaints from their intolerant neighbors, asked for a permit to expand their basement so they can move their parties indoors. Denied, because of the moratorium.

Is it asking for "special treatment" just to be given a chance? Is it asking for "special treatment" to not be shunned by the community that they serve?

And you still have not answered my question - do you think it would be a positive or a negative step in the battle against poverty if fraternities and sororities would stop their philanthropic activities? No more youth mentoring, no more Habitat For Humanity, no more Toys for Tots, ZIP. Good idea, or bad idea? Discuss.

There are other issues on my campaign site. Take off your blinders and look at them. The fact that you will see only what you want to see, and ignore the rest, is not really my fault, correct?

Anonymous said...

Mr. Jones - what was false in the ABH column? What about the 5/1/06 article? And is not true that you admitted that you invented the Ryans and the story about your shy college friend?

rdturpin said...

Interesting, Chuck, that you try to weasel your way out by claiming false statements while NOT revealing what those might be. Kudos, man. You're really helping your cause.

Kappa Alpha, solely out of their own good grace, gave up their Old South party this year, in an effort to show people that they can be good neighbors.

I, for one, am impressed. Giving up one party to prove that you can be a civil neighbor is surely a feat worthy of being given the keys to the city. What sacrifice!!

GP said...

Chuck,

To your reference to blinders, I have been to your website and seen the issues portion. However, the vast majority of what you write, at least on this blog, has been focused on the moratorium, with a few unsubstantiated charges of "corruption" aimed at Mayor Davidson sprinkled in. I think the moratorium was stupid, but I see it as a minor issue. I don't think it's indicative of some grand conspiracy or bias against Greeks.

If greek organizations are going to stop with charitable activities, (which they're not) because of the moratorium, then they're a bunch of idiots that I wouldn't want in my community.

You still haven't addressed any portion of the Winders column other than to say that there was a statement of fact that was not true. This seems like a convenient strategy to avoid an explanation. If you are going to wage a campain based on "cleaning house" you better clean your own house first.

Publius said...

Well, I'm no lawyer, but I do know how to read the AP Style Guide and Libel Manual and if you think you can prove actual malice, then good on you.

As far as the other issues are concerned, I've been to your website. (Helpful hint: if you're going to be in front of a camera, navy blue works better than black in suit colors, and light blues and grays work better than white for shirts) You do have a lot of issues stuff on there, and that's commendable. Problem is, you've chosen through your actions to highlight this issue. It's an interesting choice, considering that, as mentioned previously, it's not even in your presumptive district.

Finally, I don't know what Jason Winders' political agenda is. I've met him once or twice, I read his column pretty regularly, and I don't really know where he falls on the spectrum. I know sometimes he takes a position that I think is laughably conservative. (For instance, check out this particular blast from the early history of AthPo .)

I will say that the corporate ownership of the ABH (which also owns the Augusta Chronicle and the Savannah Morning News is probably a little more sympathetic to your side than mine, as far as partisanship goes. Hell, one of the papers - I forget which one - endorsed Pat Buchanan, for Chrissake!

Anyway, isn't it the job of the editorial guys to be biased? Your coverage in the straight news parts has been extremely fair, perhaps too much so, or have I missed the headline that said "Commission Candidate Lied About Identity, Cites "Investigative" Research, Necessity"?

DoubleDawgDareYa said...

So the Greek system's gonna take their charity elsewhere if they don't get their way on zoning rulings? How noble. They want to hold us hostage like some baseball team that wants a stadium. Well, I call shenanigans. All semantics aside about whether it's "special" or "fair" treatment (and remember, I was on your side back when the moratorium thing came up), I just don't think the two issues should have any bearing on each other. The Greeks should do their charities because it's the right thing to do. And then if, separately from that, they want to fight this battle over where they get to hold their spectacular parties, that's fine too.

In specific response to your question, I will offer: (1) I'm not sure that the Greeks have it within their power to cease all charitable activity in ACC; and (2) for all of your horn-tooting of their efforts, what effect are they having, statistically speaking, on ACC poverty anyway? Because as I'm sure you know if you've been following the discourse on here, it's circa de 28% now. Are you suggesting it's going to go higher if Josh, Chad, and Kelly are "forced" to take their resume-padding-activities elsewhere?

Horseshit.

hillary said...

Mr. Winders's politics, from what I understand, are largely biased against stupidity.

It is interesting that everyone wants to focus on HOW I got the information rather than what the information actually is.

What up, Machiavelli?

Chuck said...

Anonymous - I of course cannot discuss litigation. If and when papers are filed, they will be public record for your inspection.

GP - have you read what the Cobbham people wrote? In other words, have you actually looked at what the issue is, instead of falling for the distractions that they've tried to cook up? If so, then how can you say that this was not an issue of bias against Greeks? I'd like to read your defense of comments such as "animal house" and "khaki pant[s] and white oxford".

Turpin - they didn't HAVE to do that. They did it as a gesture to show that they want to be good neighbors. Do you have any suggestions as to other things they can do? They're doing their best - do you have any other suggestions? As I said, all they want is a chance.

GP and doubledawg - why should they continue to serve a community that constantly steps on them at every turn? If you came to my door daily with gifts, and I spit in your face every time, how long would it take you to decide "Screw this guy, I'm not going to be nice to him"? And could anyone really blame you? Then why would you blame the fraternities?

Publius - thank you for the fashion review. This picture was taken at my swearing in at Superior Court. As for this issue, I do believe it affects my district. The majority of students who live in Athens live in my district. My district includes a great many fraternities. The Sigma Nu house that Lynn's gang partied in front of is in my district. The current Kappa Alpha house is in my district, and I believe the new one will be also. So I believe I am standing up for the people in my district.

GP said...

Chuck,

I haven't read what "the Cobbham people" wrote. I'm not even sure what you're refering to. My point is that your focus on the moratorium and some vague nefarious Cobbham conspiracy of hate against Greeks is a nonexistant issue. You've still failed to address the issues of your honesty and integrity raised in the Winders column.

As to my defense of comments such as "animal house" and "khaki pant[s] and white oxford".

1. Animal House- Great movie!
2. I'm wearing khaki pants, a white oxford shirt, and a bowtie right now, (Publius can back me up) and I'm not offended in the least.

I've had many friends, and several girlfriends, in Greek organizations, and if you seriously believe that they participate in community service for altruistic reasons, then you're either incredibly naive or lying.

Anonymous said...

OK, this is all so very stupid on the part of Mr. Jones - there is no secret that the Cobbham neighborhood doesn't want a frat house in their neighborhood. They will tell you that straight out if you ask them straight out so all this stupidity about a secret investigation is just bullshit. For that matter, ask Cedar Creek, Green Acres, Glenwood, or another other traditionally single-family neighborhood in the whole county if they want a frat house in their neighborhood and you'll get the same answer - HELL NO!

Chuck said...

Why not? That is the underlying issue. What is so terrible about Greek societies, and how can they come together with the community to work past it? That is the issue I am working on - I am not interested in just ANNOUNCING the problem; I want to know how to fix it.

Plus the issue is not just not wanting a frat house in your neighborhood. The issue is prejudice and bigotry against Greeks, as revealed by the comments that I reference. As I said earlier, Dr. Kinman said she did not believe the moratorium was based on prejudice or bigotry. Now she knows. That is my whole point - to get at the facts.

GP - answer the question please. I don't care about what you are wearing, just about your answer to the question.

hillary said...

Dude, prejudice and bigotry against a bunch of rich white kids just isn't the biggest issue around for a lot of people, whether or not it's true.

rdturpin said...

Do you have any suggestions as to other things they can do? They're doing their best - do you have any other suggestions?

If they want to move into residential areas, then my suggestion to them is very simple: abide by the rules of the community in which they are moving.

And if they want to prove to people that can be good neighbors, then they have a formidable task ahead of them. Partying frat boys and sorority girls are imbedded into the way our culture views the college experience.

Is it tereotypical? Sure. But making the huge sacrifice of giving up one party isn't going very far to disprove anything.

rdturpin said...

Why not? That is the underlying issue. What is so terrible about Greek societies, and how can they come together with the community to work past it?

I'm with Hillary: good luck getting anyone to care about this (other than members of Greek societies).

There are, as the saying goes, much bigger fish to try.

hillary said...

Right. And none of that means that I think the way the commission and the Cobbham folks went about this was the right thing to do either. People do need to deal with the fact that they live in a community with a bunch of these rich white kids, and those kids will get crunk. It's just that if you're gonna pick one defining issue, the right of Trey and Amber to annoy their neighbors isn't going to win you any votes except Trey and Amber's, and chances are, they don't vote in ACC anyway.

Patrick Armstrong said...

I wonder if the ends justify the means for Chuck in this case. While undercover police work and media investigations have a history of bringing 'sunshine to fight infection,' I wonder if this particular 'infection' was bad enough to warrant this particular type of remedy, and I wonder if the side effects are worth the cure.

As Anon 1141 said: "there is no secret that the Cobbham neighborhood doesn't want a frat house in their neighborhood." The enmity between town and Greek has been going on for a long, long time - that's no secret either. And it isn't exactly 'oppression' to expect a group of people to follow the rules like everyone else, is it?

So, I'll hear it, as distasteful as your methods might be in a politician, what did you discover? Is there a long list of bribes or threats emenating from this secret organization? Are they planning on sabotoging the Greek's new home in their neighborhood? Are they planning violence or intimidation to keep Greeks out? What true crimes of oppression have the Cobbham Housewives Brigade secretly been devising?

Chuck said...

All right, that's enough. I can tell that you have already made up your minds and that nothing I can say is going to get through to you.

When someone has already made up his mind against you, it would be extreemly foolish to continue talking with that person.

So you all can keep making fun of me, calling me names, beating me up on your little website. Meanwhile, my popularity with the people I am reaching out to continues to go up - because they see that I am putting myself on the line for them and taking a lot of unnecessary abuse for them. Keep it up, it's only helping me. I'll just be sitting around and watching.

Jmac said...

So people enjoy folks who completely fabricate things for their own personal gain? Chuck, even though we disagree I've tried to give you the benefit of the doubt and treat you with respect, but this latest instance - minus any clear explanation from you on why you did what you did - has really made my seriously question that.

And to suggest that such a deception would actually increase your popularity shows such a lack of understanding of the populace (particularly in a heavily Democratic community), that it's staggering.

Chuck said...

Instead of focusing on how I got the information, why not focus on what the information actually is? Why was everyone so quick to jump wholeheartedly on the bandwagon of such an slanted column? They had already tried and convicted me before they even heard my side of it - and they will not even listen now to my side of it, because they've made up their minds. Especially using such ridiculing and derogatory language toward me.

That seems to belie, does it not, your statement about treating me with respect?

In any case, it matters little. As I tried to make clear on my website, I am not reaching out to those ultra partisan ideologues who immediately made up their minds about me as soon as they saw the word "conservative" or the word "Christian." I do not want their votes. I want the votes of everyone else, all those who are ignored by the select few currently in power. All those who are the victims of prejudice based on Publius' attitude of: Oh, it's ok to be prejudiced against those people. All those who, time after time, get their rights trampled by the vocal few. They are the ones whose votes I seek.

Chuck said...

PS - what personal gain are you speaking about? The personal gain of being spoken about by Jason Winders as if I'm a four year old? Whee. The personal gain of being bashed up and down on this forum by people who won't even listen to my side? Oh joy oh rapture.

No, this was not done out of personal gain. This was done to get at the facts and to expose the blatant hatred of a few people in this community who have the ear of the Mayor and Commission.

Chuck said...

My bad - that attitude of it's ok to be prejudiced against those people is Hillary's attitude, not Publius'. My mistake, a thousand pardons.

Adrian said...

I'm in favor of a blog entry discussing the legality of the moratorium. For instance, what is the moratorium on exactly? (If it was to keep new frat houses from being established temporarily, why does it extend to permitting for existing houses?) How long can the moratorium last to maintain the status quo without violating public notice requirements? Etc.

hillary said...

Maybe if you didn't continually act like a dumbass, you wouldn't rile everyone up into opposing you, Mr. Jones. I'm not saying the moratorium is okay. I've opposed it from the beginning. I'm saying that taking the side of the not exactly underprivileged (in life, not in the ACC) is an odd thing to do and an especially odd thing to build your campaign around. Not understanding that fighting on behalf of the rich, white, and only temporarily in town doesn't garner you as much respect as standing up for the poor and brown is bizarre. It doesn't mean you can't use it as your issue. It just doesn't seem like the most important one in town.

andyrusk said...

Jeez, a fella goes off to swing his hammer in the big city for a week and AthPo turns into a minefield...

Gonna jump in in defense of Hillary here, although I'm sure she don't need it.
Chuck, if you're twenty years old, your education is bought and paid for, just like your Land Rover, you've got plenty of jingle in your pocket, and a DUI lawyer on permanent retainer, then what the hell is a little bias? Discrimination tends not to affect the affluent, because they're, well, affluent.

The fact remains, Chuck, that bias against students in ACC is not limited to Greeks. College kids all over town get a bum rap for beings noisy, drunk, and filthy neighbors. And sometimes it's true. So what do you do if you're a college kid? Take it on the chin, enjoy your youth, stagger off to Krush Girls, and try and make the most of your six years here.

Every so often a heavy-handed law comes down the pike that hits all of 'em square in the mouth, like the rental registration crap, and the bullshit about "no more than two unrelated persons" abiding together. That stuff happens to affect more than just students, though, and righteous indignation is an appropriate response.

I don't exactly think it's right to pick and choose who gets to move in next door. Nor is it really anybody's business. It's a helluva presumption to make that your neighbors are gonna be hellions just because they go to college, or wash dishes at the Taco Stand, or play in Mother Jackson.

That said, Chuck, what we've got here is not a handful of college kids trying to rent the little place down the block. We've got a full blown institution trying to muscle in on a quiet, historic neighborhood. And the behavior of the KA's is not a matter of speculation either; it's on public record that these kids throw huge parties from time to time, and still wave the stars and bars of the Old South (God knows why).

If the neighborhood don't want 'em, it's their right to duke it out, and they are going about it like responsible citizens of a democracy. Kudos.

One candidate to another, Chuck- discretion is the better part of valor. Your platform was pretty sharp. Pick the fights that count.

Patrick Armstrong said...

Chuck, I'll ask again: "What did you discover?" How is the secret Cobbham group opressing the Greeks in town? I also ask one question further: did your methods justify the discover of such information? I'd like to know.

I'd also like to know how the town 'opresses' the Greeks. From all I've read, it seems just like the City is asking them to follow the same rules as anyone else. Any business or organization planning to build big buildings is required to go to hearings where the community can voice approval or disapproval at the move. How is this any different from when a Church or a new business moves into a neighborhood?

dick said...

So, this guy signs up to run for d9. Then, he makes up a bunch of shit to prove that residents of some other district don't like Greeks. Finally, after 20 minutes of right-clicking, this Winders fellow discovers said bunch of shit. Our hero the candidate then spins another pathetic web of outrageous lies and deception to cover the first one. This bullshit is seen through even faster than the first line of bullshit. Do I have this right so far?
I have to ask, Chuck: why do you think people are even talking about you? You aren't a serious candidate. You are, more than likely, a habitual bullshitter (and not even a good one). People are talking about you because you are the bearded lady of the political carnival. "Everybody look...it's the 26 year-old who tells gigantic lies about meaningless bullshit and then denies he's lying like a child." You can't defend yourself, even given the chance on this very blog time and time again. Just go away. I've had my yucks at your complete failure and ineptitude. Your work here is done.

Chuck said...

What an extremely appropriate username. (Speaking to Adrian, of course!)

Patrick - I disagree that they are asked to follow the same rules as everyone else. Under the rules that existed at the time they bought their house, they were perfectly entitled to have their house in that zone. They were perfectly within their rights - and they relied on that in paying $750,000 for their home. Then, the rules suddenly changed on them. I don't think that's a proper way to govern. Some might call it "bait and switch".

What I discovered were the hateful comments. I can understand not necessarily wanting to live next to a fraternity. I can - I used to live in a student housing complex and I can't tell you how many times I wanted peace and quiet while my neighbors were playing their bass cannons. However, such hateful comments having to do with drugs and prostitution are of quite another tenor. I also discovered the "smoky back room" nature of the moratorium, how Commissioner Lynn contacted all the Commissioners and got their ok before the public even knew about it. At the April Commission meeting, Commissioner Hoard stated that a lot of people in Athens feel that the Commission's decisions are made before the gavel comes down, and that the public comment periods are mere formalities. I discovered this was an example of that, leading me to believe it is a symptom of a much greater problem.

I am still extremely uneasy about saying it is ok to discriminate against 'those' people. Whether 'those' people are african-americans, or other minorities, or rich white folks, really does not make any difference. With the first link, a chain is forged. As soon as we begin to tolerate discrimination against 'those people', then how long will it be until we ourselves are regarded by the ones in power as 'those people'?

As I said earlier, I do believe that in standing up on this issue I am standing up for the poor in this community, those truly in need of charity. I would hate to see what would happen if all of the Greek philanthropy in Athens was taken to Oglethorpe or Oconee Counties. This is not a hostage situation as someone put it earlier - this is a situation of there needing to be give and take. If the community will only take take take take take and not give any, then it will not be long before these charitable organizations decide to stop giving, or to give elsewhere. Is that really in the best interest of anyone? Besides the (ironically, rich white) Cobbham people?

hillary said...

I am still extremely uneasy about saying it is ok to discriminate against 'those' people. Whether 'those' people are african-americans, or other minorities, or rich white folks, really does not make any difference. With the first link, a chain is forged. As soon as we begin to tolerate discrimination against 'those people', then how long will it be until we ourselves are regarded by the ones in power as 'those people'?

Right, and this kind of slippery slope argument is where we disagree. I'm also not saying it's okay to tolerate discrimination against "those people," even if they are Greeks, just to make things crystal clear. I'm saying that acting like discrimination against Greeks is on the same level with discrimination against African Americans is loco.

Here's a genuine question, asked in all ignorance: What organizations committed to fighting/helping with poverty do Greeks give to? Mostly, what I see is charitable actions designed to fight some sort of disease. I'm guessing Habitat for Humanity is one. But do they ever throw big parties to benefit the local health center?

GP said...

"I do believe that in standing up on this issue I am standing up for the poor in this community, those truly in need of charity. I would hate to see what would happen if all of the Greek philanthropy in Athens was taken to Oglethorpe or Oconee Counties."

How very condescending. Your premise that Greeks would take their charity work to bordering counties as a result of the moratorium is ridiculous. Due to your history of questionable methods of tracking down information, I find it doubtfull that Greek organizations have even communicated that intention to you.

Do you beleive that the community should be indebted to Greeks for the services they perform? Should the negative actions of Fraternities and Sororities be brushed aside because they do charity work? Give me a break.

There are better (more direct) ways that you can "stand up for the poor in this community" then by focusing on the charity performed by Greeks.

How does the community "take take take" from the Greek organizations?
You haven't chosen to focus your campaign strategy on helping the poor, you've chosen instead to focus on helping the privileged.

Jmac said...

Chuck, I stand with Patrick here and again say ... what is this information you have? You've alluded to something uber-secret, but I don't know what it is. You call for us to cease focusing on how you got the information, but refuse to pass on said information so we can actually evaluate it and discuss it as you so passionately call for us to do.

Have we jumped on a bandwagon? If we did, it was one you were driving full-speed ahead. You haven't changed the story in a week, but instead offer confusing defenses of the Greeks (which, it must be noted, none of us have come out and supported the moratorium) and claim you're the one being persecuted, despite the fact that you haven't denied deceiving the public for your own personal gain (and what I mean by that is, quite frankly, to get elected).

Furthermore, not one person here has come out and said we won't elect you because you're a 'conservative' or 'Christian.' I may not be classified as holding to a conservative ideology, but I do consider myself to be a strong Christian and ardent defender of my faith.

Have I treated you with little respect? I think not. I think I gave you the benefit of the doubt, and you're the one who proceeded to trample all over us here by concocting a story you claim will bring light to a dark underside of government.

And what is that darkness? Is it that David Lynn acted foolishly and irresponsibly in getting the moratorium on the agenda? Well, for lack of a better term ... duh.

I covered that already here, and, again, no one - not even ardent defender of all things David Lynn, Hillary - is saying he was right in doing what he did.

Respect has to be earned, and the respect I initially held for you for having the gumption to post on a blog with a more Democratic slant than you began to evaporate when it was reported you engaged in this silly business about fabricating a family.

And, if I can offer a little advice to you, when you build your campaign around the notion that you want to give a voice to those shut out of the political process and challenge the powerful few who control this community, it's not a good idea to make your big splash in the area by backing the children of people who are, more often than not, the rich and powerful. There are plenty of disenfranchised voices in this community, and despite my serious concerns over this incident, I have no reason to believe you don't seriously want to help them. But, heed Andy's suggestion and let this lie.

Dick said...

I was really skeptical about Chuck’s claims regarding the impact Greeks have on the indigent in our town, so I decided to do some investigating. I contacted some very old and dear friends of mine who have been down on their luck for a few years now. They are Dan and Janice, two bums here in town. They know hardship all too well, trying to raise their infant twins on the mean streets. I knew where to find them: bum’s row, on College Avenue. As I approached, Dan pivoted on his single crutch, turning to me. I just stood there a moment, regarding him, regarding me.
“Dan, I need to ask you a question,” I said. “How do you feel about people in fraternities and sororities?” He smiled his lovable, crooked smile – the kind of smile you can only achieve after decades of near-missed opportunities.
“They are angels, sent from on high,” he said. “There’s this one fellow, his name is Tad. But to me, he will always be Sir Tad of Gwinnett. “ Dan then began to regale me with a tale of Tad’s magnificence. Just last night, Sir Tad passed by Dan’s way, stumbling to his Land Rover (Chariot of Fire, as Dan put it), after a well-deserved night of mirth and merriment. Dan offered a salutation. Sir Tad responded by hurling every last loose cent he had directly at Dan, yelling “Get a job, bum asshole!” I asked Dan, “How did that make you feel?” Dan responded, “If you had seen the pure zest and zeal of Sir Tad’s philanthropy, you would know I had no choice but to feel empowered to change my life.” Pretty moving stuff.
Janice had a lovely story of her own. “The other night,” she said, “Sir Skyler of East Cobb came upon our squatter’s hut. There must have been twenty of us bums just hanging around there. Well, Sir Skyler got the whole lot of us drunk with a single Schlitz. I’ll never forget that.”
So, Chuck, you win this one. We’ve got to keep those sainted frat boys happy. Not just for Dan, but for Janice and those poor twins.

DoubleDawgDareYa said...

I love it when we don't even have to be here.

Chuck, I've to hand it to you, old boy. You keep coming back, even after your meltdown of the other night. You have a Bush-like ability to stick to a story in the face of an all-contrary reality. Nicely played.

I wonder if this thread might end up a challenger for all-time most comments?

Patrick Armstrong said...

Chuck, thanks for answering my question. Those answers, do, of course, lead to others.

You said: "[The fraternities] were perfectly within their rights - and they relied on that in paying $750,000 for their home. Then, the rules suddenly changed on them. I don't think that's a proper way to govern. Some might call it "bait and switch".

So you're saying that all the "t's" were crossed, the "i's" dotted, they had the permits in place and signed, and the County was OK with everything right up until the Commissioner and the Cobbham group got invovled? I just don't buy it. I might be way off base here, but anytime a church, business, bar, restaurant or a large development of any kind moves into an area, there has to be a public hearing - whether everything is legally OK with code or not (at least that's the way it is in my neck of the woods). From my limited knowledge of zoning and code, no organization can just buy property and put up whatever they want without the input of the public.

If public hearings had already taken place, and all the residents of the area had already had their say, and the county had OK'd the construction before they enacted a moratorium, then you may have a case.

One thing that always struck me about the "smoky-room deals" with the County Commission was the fact that so many decisions were made without public input. But those always involved decisions allowing investment and construction. This is the first time I've heard of an action that stopped new construction from happening in order to give the public a chance to weigh in on an issue.

It would seem that the best way for Fraternities to handle it would be to speak with their neighbors and address their concerns directly.

Charles R said...

I think Patrick makes a very good point there: if the moratorium's ostensible purpose is to give the public a voice, then "thepublic" also includes fraternities, who are either immediately or indirectly affected by the moratorium, and who are then tasked with presenting themselves as the responsible and considerate citizens of a community they are claimed to be.

Chuck, since my concerns from before went unaddressed, perhaps you can respond, or not, to a much simpler version of them. As I understand the "one link chain" argument, an acceptable discrimination of any kind opens us up to any discrimination of acceptable kinds (it's a shift in modality), so if we are to stand firm against discrimination, we must stand firm at the first signs of it. You've also linked together bigotry with discrimination, along with prejudice. These words all seem to refer to the same kind of judgment. So, here's my question: is there ever a time when one's experiences gained over time can be used to make a judgment about someone or something? And, if one's long-standing impression from many and repeated encounters with some groups of people is either negative or positive, can one make such a judgment?

It seems like nobody is permitted to say or think negative things, at all, about fraternities, because this leads to undemocratic governance being made acceptable (is this, in the end, what the complaint is?). And nobody is permitted this even if the reasons for why a person makes such negative judgments are warranted. Are there, ever, warranted reasons to make negative judgments about certain fraternities? Speaking for myself, I have had very few positive and very many negative experiences in my interactions with the fraternities that seem, to me, to be more directly affected with the moratorium at this time. But earlier it was insinuated that I was like a grumpy old man who calls the cops at the drop of a hat. Like, but not is. And you yourself admit that there are certain occasions when you had negative experiences. But you also claim that there are more rewarding experiences, such as the benefits to the local community provided by the charity of the fraternities.

It seems we have the formal structure, then, for an argument for why we should not have legislation making it a felony to be undocumented in the state of Georgia. Afterall, who is the more materially disadvantaged by the prejudice and bigotry of a community, the white fraternity brother or the latino poultry processor? Perhaps your sympathies in defeating the first link of a chain of bigotry begin when it is a fraternity brother being harassed for what he chooses to do with his ample freedom. My sympathies, and I think the sympathies of many, are with those who are already put under the weight of the chain itself. That is, I think, the problem here. You see a chain soon to be forged upon someone, and make that your public commitment, claiming that this will help those who are already weighed down and tied by the chain. It just isn't clear that helping fraternity brothers live together to party and study and drink and pray will make life for the Athens homeless and poor and dispossessed safer, healthier, more liveable, and more comfortable.

Jmac said...

So you're saying that all the "t's" were crossed, the "i's" dotted, they had the permits in place and signed, and the County was OK with everything right up until the Commissioner and the Cobbham group got invovled?

From what I remember, the only fraternity to be affected by this process was the one which hadn't finished with the processing and completing of the appropriate procedures. One of the things both Alan Redish and Bill Berryman kept repeating was that if the commission did choose to wait on the moratorium, it would do no good for the fraternities contemplating the move since they would have already completed all the necessary paperwork.

Some fraternities were affected, but everything wasn't finalized. But another was not because it had finished its necessary work for the move. Hence the 'urgency' behind David Lynn's action.

It's lousy either way in my book, but to suggest the commission is completely trampling over the rule of law and procedure, as Chuck may be alluding to, is misleading.

Publius said...

Chuck? Misleading?

Bite your tongue, sir!

Amber said...

This would make for an excellent podcast. Just sayin'...

Anonymous said...

Here's a second for Hillary's excellent question above - perhaps the answer was buried in the details of the myriad subsequent posts . . .

The Greeks seem to stay focused on Children's Miracle Network and Make a Wish etc. for their big-push charitable fund-raising efforts. Any statistics available about what they do on a local level (besides adopting highways - all jokes about DUI community service aside . . .)?

One could argue that the transient relationship students have with Athens not only makes it impossible for guys like Chuck to mobilize their vote, but keeps their charity focused on broader issues than those specific to the local community.

GP said...

No more Chuck? Were dick's comments the straw that broke the camels back?

Chuck said...

No, I've been otherwise occupied with more serious things. I will respond sometime soon I promise.

Most people here raised at least marginally reasonable points. And I would love the opportunity to comment more on them. Just give me a little bit of time until the cases I am working on settle down.

Chuck said...

Alrighty I'm back, let's see what I missed.

Anonymous - the Interfraternity Council would likely have those statistics. Every fraternity and sorority I know has adopted at least one highway in Athens. (Someone needs to adopt those streets in Cobbham though). In fact, at the April Commission meeting, immediately after hearing a bunch of people stereotype fraternities with hateful comments, Mayor Heidi Davison made a proclamation concerning Kappa Alpha Psi and their adopt-a-highway efforts.

JMAC - the point I am trying to make is that the fraternity in question was following all the rules, and then suddenly had the rules changed on them, AFTER they paid $750,000 for their house. Now, I will bet anything that they had already contacted Planning and were told that everything was ok - no one would spend that much money without checking on something like that first - and then, after they had already been told "unofficially" that everything was good, THEN they had the rules changed on them. Changing the rules in the middle of the game is not ethical.

Charles R - I think that instead of putting our focus toward judging our neighbors, we should put our focus toward working with them to be good neighbors. Sure, the easier thing to do is to judge and stereotype. It is easy to do that on both fronts - for example, I heard of one fraternity who gave their neighbors $100 gift certificates to the Basil Press when they were going to have a party - the neighbors would go to dinner at about 5, get back at 7, then call the police. Would it be easy to paint all of the fraternities' neighbors as these horrible people who would do something like that? Easy, yes. Fair, no. I have never been satisfied with what was easy, I am interested in doing what is right.

Right, to me, is sitting down and having a dialogue - not using the power of the government but just sitting down as potential neighbors and trying to reach out. Just as Patrick suggested. Kappa Alpha, for one, has done that in my opinion. They have gone to all of those hate-filled meeting at the Hill Street church, they have given out magnets with numbers on it to call if the noise from the house gets too loud, etc. And they have cancelled their party, which they had every right to have, as an olive branch to try and show that they can be good neighbors. Has this mattered? I submit that it has not. The neighbors will not listen - they have already made a pre-judgment. And it is very difficult to get past one's prejudices.

Patrick - hearing and approval was not required. The fraternity was perfectly within the zoning law to locate in that area, no special use permit or zoning variance was required. THEN they had the rules changed on them. Again, changing the rules in the middle of the game, especially after someone has already paid close to a million dollars for their house, is unethical.

Let me say one final thing - I have discovered why the Cobbham people were so angry with me about making up a pseudonym to get on their list. If any of you are reading this, let me just say that I did not intend for it to go that far. I did not intend to seize upon your emotions - I'm sorry. I am not sorry for trying to get into the smoky back room of the Internet to find out what hateful things were being said, and I am not sorry about doing whatever I have to do in order to see that fairness prevails in this case. But I am sorry that it got so far and that your emotions were involved. For that I apologize. I only intended to use a pseudonym and put up a story to make it believable.

Publius said...

Pursuant to Elton Dodson's public smoking ordinance, the "smoky back room of the Internet" is now a smoke-free zone.

Chuck said...

I always thought that most of the Commissioners were very good at blowing smoke. Oh well.

Anonymous said...

PLEASE do not associate Chuck Jones with the College Republicans. Jason Winders was mistaken in his analogy; we do not support or endorse Mr. Jones in this race in any official capacity whatsoever. We believe in integrity and honesty in all cases, as well as open and above-board tactics.